This is the official blog of ex-Sgt Ellie Bloggs. I was a real live police constable then sergeant for twelve years, on the real live front line of England. I'm now a real live non-police person. All the facts I recount are true, and are not secrets. If they don't want me blogging about it, they shouldn't do it. PS If you don't pay tax, you don't (or didn't) pay my salary.

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Monday, February 01, 2010

Legal Cops, Illegal Search

Kent is not having a happy time.

While we all bate our breath awaiting the outcome of Crouchergate, Kent Police have now admitted breaking the law by sending out a notice to officers policing Kingsnorth Climate Camp encouraging them to search people without lawful grounds.

As a police officer, you often rely on the policy decisions of your force to ensure you don't do something illegal. If I receive an email with a map, with the words "A s.44 Terrorism Act Authority is now in place in the attached area, you may stop and search anyone you come across", I will read it out to my team in briefing and they will go out and act upon it. If it later turns out the map is inaccurate, or that the s.44 power itself is illegal, a police officer may well end up carrying out an illegal search. Anything found in that search may well therefore be inadmissible in court, and any force used to complete the search will be excessive or even an assault. Which is why, when I receive emails of this type, I save them in a special folder called "IPCC".*

It is also why the officers who shot Jean-Charles de Menezes were exonerated of any guilt in the numerous enquiries that followed.

Which is confusing really, because it is hammered home in training that a police officer is responsible for the lawfulness or otherwise of his/her own actions. You can disobey an order from a senior officer, if obeying it would entail doing something unlawful. But police officers act on wrong information, or under a misapprehension of the law, on numerous occasions, and are rarely found individually guilty of offences because it's accepted that you have a right to trust your force's policy and guidelines. Who is actually held accountable for a policy or guideline that leads to a breach in law is another matter. It is often no simple feat just to identify who wrote it.

At present I receive a lot of emails to do with arresting people for 'race' crime and domestic abuse, keeping people in custody for their full twenty-four hours in the hope of a charge, 'turning over' baddies perpetually, plaguing offenders who have a curfew with 2-3 bail checks a night, etc. There's usually a clever "(justifiably!)" or "(within your powers!)" squeezed in brackets into the emails, but the messages are clear. I read the emails, I grasp the official motivation as well as the unofficial. I file them away and carry on policing as I see fit.

Policy is not the law. The law is not policy. Breaching either can get you fired, but breaching just one of them can put you in prison.

We ARE responsible for the lawfulness of our actions. We DO have the power to say no. Once you have stripes, it becomes easier to stand up for yourself, but the trade-off is the dwindling prospect of those stripes ever transmogrifying into pips. No one wants an inspector who knows the law too well.

* I don't really have a folder called that. But you get the gist.
'Diary of an On-Call Girl' is available in some bookstores and online.


Anonymous Retired Sgt said...

Actually yyou sould have a folder for these type of things as these are exactly the sort of things that come back to bite you months if not years later.I can recall numerous occasions when I queried policies decisions etc on the grounds of legality and I can say I was 100% right.An example was one Christmas a keen Chief Inspector announced to me as a full time custody officer that from the week before Christmas(1988) all drink drivers will be kept in and put before the courts the next day-
"You cant do that"says I."Yes I can" says the Chief Insp"I have run it past CPS and the court clerk and the Ch.Supt thinks its a good idea."Well there is a little matter of PACE to think about and I follow the law not an incorrect policy decision".Chief Insp storms off muttering oaths and threats.Next day my Insp tells me that the Ch Insp has decided not to implement the policy-the Ch Insp was such a big man that he couldnt bring himself to tell me personally.
Senior officers now are even more inexperienced than in my day and do not have have a background in delivering policing-so if you are not happy that a policy is legal then challenge it because you are ultimately responsible for your actions

01 February, 2010 17:35

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reminds me of many years ago when a DC at my station in west London shot and killed a wanted man. We had all seen the posters before the event and anyone in that DC's shoes would have behaved the same. Always amazed me just how quickly those posters disappeared after the event and he was pilloried, taught me to keep a copy of anything that I thought could get me in the poo, saving emails on your work computer is somewhat vulnerable thing to do as they can disappear!

01 February, 2010 19:33

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was at Kingsnorth (along with thousands of other officers) and it was a sham from the begining. We were constantly questioning and ignoring many of the very dodgy policy coming down. It became known as OP OVERKILL. What gets me is that anyone with half a brain could see what was going on, yet the senior officers have almost all since been further promoted or given commendations, despite the force admitting it was all illegal and the strategy was flawed. If you had said it at the time, you would have been branded as 'difficult' etc. Bonkers.

01 February, 2010 20:13

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dungbeetle says
In any line of endeavour, one should always abide by thy moral conscience.
Bosses today like to bully the "lessers" into iffy then if successful then can blackmail them into the seedy side of the job.
So keep thy integrity.

01 February, 2010 22:18

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good post and this mail helped me alot in my college assignement. Say thank you you for your information.

02 February, 2010 02:00

Anonymous bender the robot said...

Not a new problem...

Henry the fifth act 4 scene 1...

Every subject's duty is the king's; but every subject's
soul is his own.

Smart man...

Its something I think about every time I am about to instigate any policy set by people that are not directly responsible for it...

02 February, 2010 12:18

Anonymous Serpico said...

In my experience in stop and searching, I have never done anything illegal. If I am ever told to conduct an illegal search, I will respond by questioning their grounds for the search. However in general, when conducting stop and search, I have always found that white people have a massive chip on their shoulders, black people will say its because of the colour of their skin and Asian people will act the tough guys within a group.

02 February, 2010 13:15

Anonymous Anonymous said...

My own experience of stop searches is that I can often justify the grounds for doing so, even if my original grounds were just that they looked 'quite shifty'.

On the forms, I will use words like 'furtive' and 'apprehensive' if that's what's required to keep my warrant card.

I heard from an olds sweat who used to work in GMP, that solicitors were working in inner-city manchester schools, giving talks to kids on their rights when it came to the Police, and how to go about suing the Constabulary if GOWISELY wasn't trotted through in perfection. This chap isn't inclined to embelish either.

What a sad relationship between the youth and Police that builds up.


02 February, 2010 15:57

Anonymous A Polis Man said...

Nice to the person who came up with this (alright then signed it off) flagrant and illegal policy is now going to be in charge of the CPS!!

I look forward to many more robbers burglars and thieves walking away from court due to an abuse of process!!

02 February, 2010 17:35

Anonymous NottsSarge said...

RetiredSgt you are spot on. Some time ago, due to various issues, there was pretty much a blanket Sec 60 Search Authority in place, signed up by a Supt. Said officer was very pleased with himself at taking such a bold and radical step that he came to a morning briefing, where he was immediately humiliated by the PCs and Sgts who pointed out that Sec 60 can only be authorised for 24 hours at a time, not until the end of the month as he had just signed it up. That's basic, bread and butter stuff, but so many bosses seem to neglect those basics in the mad scramble to the next rank.

Anyone with any nous can script up a stop-search form. You need a bit more to recognise that pressure from above for figures won't legitimise illegal searches, and you need plenty of backbone to answer back when challenged.

It's quite simple - if you have to break the law to uphold the law, you're a long way up the creek without a paddle

03 February, 2010 01:04

Anonymous Steve D. said...

@ Police Boy – 10 - 15 years ago schools on my ground in South London were having specific lessons each term on kids rights regarding S&S and what to do if arrested, and this was on the curriculum and being taught by teachers!!!

I was part of a small team that went into the schools on drug awareness days and I was taken aback by their knowledge - not so much what they knew, but the words they used were almost identical to those in PACE.

It's a sad indictment that kids are taught Police powers even before English and Maths!!!

03 February, 2010 01:33

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've never been sure why the law has to be so difficult. Scrotes who wear slip on trainers because they can't do shoelaces know it in terms of 'no comment' and the rest. The only real reason must be that the complexity funds the lifestyles of judges, lawyers and any variety to worthies. It also let politicians write law useless in dealing with real problems. R v Fowler (1877) says it all - given the name of the accused this just had to be about attempted duck-fucking and led to the acquittal of some scummo who had been rummaging in a police woman's handbag. No attempted theft because you can't fuck a duck (commit the full offence), empty bag so no attempted theft. With reasoning like this, all we get is an understanding of the phrase 'as tight as a duck's arse'.

03 February, 2010 07:43

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I truly believe that we have reached the point where technology has become one with our lives, and I am 99% certain that we have passed the point of no return in our relationship with technology.

I don't mean this in a bad way, of course! Societal concerns aside... I just hope that as technology further develops, the possibility of transferring our brains onto a digital medium becomes a true reality. It's one of the things I really wish I could see in my lifetime.

(Posted on Nintendo DS running [url=]R4i[/url] DS FPost)

03 February, 2010 12:18

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Quite how, people who are trying to raise public awareness about the damage being done to this planet, from pollution, could be classed as "terrorists", just beggars belief. Unbelievable and absolutely barking mad govt policy.

To say that this government have got it badly wrong, is the understatement of last decade, and they are still "getting it wrong".
Having "tinkered" with all the public services and screwed them up, as well as the House of Lords, they are now trying to "tinker" with Her Majesty's Military Forces, Army, Navy, Air Force - all due for cuts, mid war, and an intention to carry on with highly expensive Trident. So much for Nuclear disarmament and world peace!

Someone on Gadget's blog SEE NO EVIL, left an angry comment, saying that they "didn't teach diversity", which should be buried on unconsecrated ground along with the "priests" of that cult. Oh dear.

The basic message that people are made equal, in the eyes of The Creator, and therefore should not be hated or persecuted for being female, homosexual, coloured, or disabled, is not wrong. That is in line with Peel's Principles of protecting life, protecting the vulnerable and keeping the Queen's Peace.

The Divine Message from The Creator, The Supreme Being, is not " a cult". It is Divine Will and guidance for humanity, for this time in our history, with an intention of bringing about a more peaceful society, the family of humanity.

How the government have gone about trying to achieve this noble aim, has resulted in a great deal of bureaucratic nonsense and some confusion. The original message did not in any way suggest that sex change operations were okay, nor dressing as a woman, if born a man. The government went too far, trying to legislate a "perfect" society. Government have made a mess of things, and that is NOT the fault of the "Messenger".

It's the same old story of one who has vision and insight, who shows the right way, has their message distorted, corrupted and abused by those who either don't fully understand the words, or by those who put their own spin on them.


04 February, 2010 02:56

Anonymous copperbottom said...

What villans (and the odd MOP) fear about Police stop and search- is that is does actually work. The fact that you are caught with the items -is a little difficult to explain and puts them on the back foot to start...

The problem for the knife carrying, drug carrying villan is 'how do I remove this power?'...

The best way is to stop the Police actually doing the searches by branding them 'racist' or to make so much trouble that there is a fight and that gives you a chance to get away.

thats the only reason villans get mardi about stop and search...

04 February, 2010 12:50

Anonymous NottSarge said...

Maybe they should reintroduce the 'sus' law from the Vagrancy Act. Yes, it was misused in the 1980s but how many are left from that era now?
That was a simple enough piece of legislation as well, no forms to fill in, no 2-or-more, no harassment, alarm or distress.
Who are you, what are you doing here, what have you got on you?
Not difficult. We can do that without any legislation at all, but it strikes me that a lot of young in service cops lack the confidence to do it as they are harrangued about lawful/unlawful searches in training.

I think you're right, Copperbottom. Play the racist card, or any other card for that matter, and the organisation will immediately shy away from the real issue - how to proactively lock up villains before the crime is committed.
As you say, the only people who need to fear a stop search are those with knives, drugs etc. Personally I think it's worth about 2 mins and a brief invasion of your privacy if you're a normal MOP going about your business.

As ever, too many offenders know their rights without understanding their responsibilities...

04 February, 2010 13:28

Anonymous mark said...

copper bottom,nottsarg,
Are you both drunk?? or just simple?? what are you both on about
2 mins?? were did you get that from.
Both of you want to be on the other side of a stop and search.
The vast majorty of people who are s+s have got nothing or done nothing are going to do nothing,,so why should they be repeatedly s+s by rude aggressive half wits in uniform,,,who from my expereance and that of my work mates dont have the first clue what the s+s rules are.
Notts sargent, the sus law was misused in the 80s??? misused???
It lead to full scale city rioting
you fool, no alarm or distress??
i am lost for words.
Why should offenders mops not know their rights whats the point of having rights if you dont know them.
are you one of the cops left over from the 80s era?? i would say so.
i know plenty of people who fear s+s and with good reason and no they are not criminals.

04 February, 2010 18:37

Anonymous mark said...

PS, neather of you seem to have the first clue how people are treated during s+s or the complaints OR the very very low arrest rates.
S+S a very good power giving that power to the police very bad.

04 February, 2010 18:43

Anonymous copperbottom said...

you are so right Mark...

In fact, I think the Police should stop searching people- and premises...

because- lets face it... all coppers are bastards?

jumped up, bullied at school, half-witted bullies - looking to take out their inadequate powerless feelings on the poor members of the public (like you mate) that have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong.

They may, for example, simply be wearing similar clothing to a suspect- or look like that person... then up comes Mr Rozer - all balls and no brains- and just because they may match that description have the fecking nerve to want to search them!


of course- the whole idea of stop and search is to gather/secure evidence - which can- remove you from an arrest enquiry?

if it were up to me- i would sack the lot...

mind you, it was tried once... yes- in Canada... when the Police just didnt turn up fo a day... I think it was about 2-hours before the town Mayor went on national tv BEGGING them to go back...

04 February, 2010 20:18

Anonymous Serpico said...

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about police officers. During my teenage years, I was S&S a few times but I was always respectful to police officers and hence it worked both ways.
Whilst there might be the small majority of police officers who let the majority of decent ones down, just like the minority of society that ruin it for the majority of the good law abiding citizens in this county. When police officers see something that isn’t right, then there is the power by law to stop that individual and ascertain information mostly based on general questions. If based on that person’s non-responsive communication or general bad attitude, then it increases that officer’s suspicion for having reasonable grounds to search that individual. If you or your family lived in a street that had recently been hit for burglaries, and recent history indicated that the offenders wore distinctive clothing, would you rather police officers drive by/walk by without stopping and possibly searching people that matched that type of description in your street, or would you want us to prevent you becoming a victim of burglary?

04 February, 2010 20:51

Blogger blueknight said...

Just for the record, the so called 'sus' law had nothing to do with stop and search.
It was a power to arrest a suspected person or reputed thief who was loitering with intent to commit an offence. Usually someone trying to pick pockets, or trying car doors, etc

04 February, 2010 21:05

Anonymous mark said...

copperbottom, Cant comment on the Canada police, but i can comment on the Mexican pols went on strike for about a week crime went down.
premises???cant help you with that one MATE.
Assisant commissioner John Yates {hes a cop} to severely curtail use of S+S senior officers say S+S powers damage community relations AND PRODUCE NO {NO} BENEFIT.
were do you get the sack all the police from or the remove you from an arrest enquiry?? thats rubbish,,
Back to your mate John Yates less than 5% of arrests come from S+S his words not mine.
Of the 5% of arrests undisclosed % was for being rude aggressive and so forth.
Are you a police officer or just a
cop wanabe?

04 February, 2010 22:34

Anonymous mark said...

pc bloggs, did you censor some of my replys???

04 February, 2010 23:39

Anonymous mark said...

bluenight, just for the record the sus law WAS used for S+S, try reading the Scarman report or if thats a bit hard try wikipedia.

04 February, 2010 23:43

Anonymous mark said...

serpico, im not sure wats going on i did reply to you but it seems to have gone missing,,, very odd.
pc bloggs questions were asked and ansered,

04 February, 2010 23:57

Anonymous Anonymous said...

copperbottom - Stop and Search law may well "work", but if you are an innocent person who is stopped by officers with an arrogant and sneering attitude, who then demands to search you in public, and find nothing, the experience can be a degrading and humiliating one.

If that happens repeatedly, because you just happen to look and dress like an assumed "profile group", that causes resentment and bad feeling. People REALLY do not like being "assumed" to be guilty of something, whilst walking around their neighbourhood, just because of the colour of their skin, or the clothes they wear. The targeting of ethnic lads in and around London and elsewhere, during the 80's DID result in riots.

I can see both sides, however. Officers will beieve they are doing their job, of protecting the public and preventing crime. Just as I believe that there are more good officers than bad ones, there are more good people than bad ones.

Police can have their view of MOP's skewed, when they are dealing with the baddies, day in day out, year on year. That can result in a sort of "conditioned response" to ALL teenagers, ethnic minorities, people on benefits, environmental campaigners, whoever.

If those MOP's, innocent or guilty of minor offences, have a number of bad experiences with police officers, that too skews their view. Neither side is totally right about the other, in general terms.

I suspect that Mark [above] has perhaps had some less than happy experiences with police officers.

Some can be infuriatingly arrogant, but lets face it, better a society WITH police protecting the vulnerable, and keeping the lid on anarchy and disorder, than no police at all. They KNOW THAT, and perhaps that's also a part of the attitude problem some officers do appear to flout, without shame.

05 February, 2010 02:19

Anonymous Serpico said...

Some good points Anonymous.

05 February, 2010 11:18

Anonymous NottsSarge said...

Anon@02:19 -
Think you're right, it's all about the way in which the situation is approached - from both sides. To MOPs it may seem an officious approach but there are certain things you have to get across. If both parties are agreeable, the whole process takes no time at all because compliance generally indicates your search will be negative. Equally, being furtive, evasive and generally anti will mean the process takes longer asthings like officer safety come into play.
I have had plenty of negative stop-searches but I would like to think those people recognised that I was doing my job. As I often say, if it was your house that had just been burgled, you'd want me to be checking people...

For the record Mark
- I'm not an 80s cop
- The 80s riots weren't caused by the Police, they were the consequence of a massive socio-political change in the UK at the time (you'll find that on Wikipedia too)
- The term harrassment, alarm or distress refers to the actions of individuals to the public in general. Don't cast aspersions about my legal knowledge if you don't recognise this very common term.
- I have been on the other side of a stop-search. I was calm and compliant. It took no time and I went on my way.
- Know your rights by all means, but understand that they come with responsibilities. If I have grounds to stop-search you, I can and I will, by force if necessary. That's not bullying, that's law enforcement.

I find it strange that people accuse 'the Police' of all sorts of stereotyping without recognising that they are doing exactly the same when they refer to their own experiences. Maybe 'that officer' was rude, arrogant, stupid etc but (s)he is not 'the Police' any more than every teenager in a hoody is an antisocial yob with an ASBO. I think that's what Anon was driving at too...

05 February, 2010 11:28

Anonymous copperbottom said...

mark- you have your experience(s) of being stopped and searched by the Police - I (as a Police Officer) hae mine of having to do it.

To my knowledge, I have had one complaint relating to the way I searched someome- in 20-years... not too bad...

My questions to you are:

how come you are being stopped and searched so often? I am 46- and in the 26-years of not being a Police officer I was stopped ONCE by the Police -not searched! I lived in a large inner-city in an area my friends described as 'a de-mill zone'.

Funny, but in the same way its the same people in my job that get thumped- and complained about- its the same members of the public that seem to be stopped- and 'harrassed'////

co-incidence? I think not... attitude bad or good-swings both ways mark MATE... see your response to me calling you mate?

your chip needs no stone work from me...

as to the comments removed- if they are nasty or from that fcuked up troll that keeps taking the piss out of bender- Blogs bins them.

Dont forget- officers get stopped outside of work... but your chip blinds you to that... because you will no-doubt say -they let you off cos you are cops... etc...

I could say a hundred times no they dont- you wouldnt believe me... The last time I was stopped was on the motorway- the officers were ok and one of them even recognised me from many years ago- he still gave me a producer...

because of my attitude?

no- because the ANPR computer prints out the stops - and his boss will want to know why no producer was issued...

Pete- I know this may be hard for a teenager to understand but - I was being ironic...

05 February, 2010 12:23

Anonymous mark said...

Notts sarge, your and other police comments about being S+S how many times did it happen? once twice?? in your life.
Im talking about people being S+S 2-3 times aweek how would you like that how long would you stay calm and polite??
Im from Birmingham i work a lot of nights i work with a lot of black blokes good hard working men {friends} and the amount of bother they have by the police is terrible, one was stoped wile driving home and told get out of the fucking car nigger......
You say you ask questions before you search thats rubbish,,you just get out the car and demand to search with little or no explanation.
Your claim of stereotyping have you not read the typic of this blogg?? illigal searches you know searches with out grounds.
Yes the police were the main cause of the riots in the 80s Lord Scarman report,, The death of the old lady at the hands of the police {forgot her name now} were the spark the misuse of the sus law were the fuse, you know this or should know this.

05 February, 2010 12:45

Anonymous mark said...

Copperbottom, no reply from me will be nasty or i hope stupid,may be my PC is not being pc.
To anser your reply,, i was stoped not always searched {not much now} i would think becouse of were i work and i do a lot of nights walking about between 22:00 to 06:00 with a bag on my back and scruffy clothing not that it makes any difference what i wear becouse you cant stereotype when S+S {crap}.
Iv only been arrested once that was over a S+S due to the abuse i gave the cops.
read my reply to Notts Sarge.
We my work friends and I dont have much bother now with S+S becouse we complain every time even if a cops just asks questions and the company we work for and our union put complaints in.
the pols do seem a bit worried about complains regarding S+S,,
My chip as you put it was placed their by people like you and the way my mates were treated,, you {cops} seem to think its a crime to be black and out at night.
You are right cops do let cops off.
I dont mean to be rude or get my reply binned but could we stop calling each other MATE?? thats one thing we will never be.

05 February, 2010 13:28

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know this is pedantic, but Mark, get some education you fuckwit:
majorty = majority
half wits = halfwits
expereance = experience
sargent = sergeant
lead = (in that context) led (and it dodn't, the fact that the police were interfering with what some people saw as their right to sell drugs and operate no-go areas caused the riots)
neather = neither
Assisant = Assistant
were = where
wanabe = wannabe (usually)
replys = replies
wats = what's
ansered = answered
stoped wile = stopped while
typic = not sure. Is this a word?
illigal = illegal
searches with out grounds = searches without grounds
A spark won't light a fuse.

05 February, 2010 14:50

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Shit, there's more. British Comprehensive education, a beacon across the world:

anser = answer
stoped = it's stoPPed for fuck's sake
becouse of were = because of where

"i do a lot of nights walking about between 22:00 to 06:00 with a bag on my back and scruffy clothing" So do burglars, you moron.

"not that it makes any difference what i wear becouse you cant stereotype" Coming from Aston University's Emeritus Professor of Applied Stereotyping and Anecdotal Bullshit.

"Iv (I've) only been arrested once that was over a S+S due to the abuse i gave the cops." So don't abuse them, you tool.

"We my work friends and I dont have much bother now with S+S becouse we complain every time even if a cops just asks questions and the company we work for and our union put complaints in." Eh?

"My chip as you put it was placed their (there) by people like you" (I thought you were all about not stereotyping?)

05 February, 2010 14:56

Anonymous NottsSarge said...

Mark - pedantry aside, I'd laugh if I kept getting stopped. Postal workers, milkmen, shift workers etc are always getting pulled in their cars or stopped on the street because they are up and about when nobody else is. If they are legit, fine, if they're up to no good (or suspected of being) it's only right that they are checked out. It's no more than a minor irritation, and most people can shrug those off.
It's not clear if you are referring to stops or stop-searches - they are very different things but public perception seems to be that they are the same. I have been stop-searched in the past and equally I have been stopped many times, generally after work, because, like you, I am out and about at an odd time of night. Not once have I pulled my warrant card as I've found that being civil gets me through the ordeal. I can tell you as well that, if I stop-searched you, you'd get the whole official spiel as to why and what for.

I can't condone racism and if your workmate was spoken to like that the officer should be sacked. It's worth considering though that cities like Birmingham have significant minority populations - so stop-search figures will be proportionately higher in those areas.

Digressing slightly, yes, Police actions contributed to the riots in the 80s but the causes are far more complex than you (and Scarman) imply. Sad and ironic that Keith Blakelock was the Beat Bobby for Broadwater Farm. It was his job to try and engage with that community...

Unlike some I appreciate the fact that you comment on this site Mark, along with various neutrals or vaguely antis. It makes things more interesting than just cops sounding off, which I can hear every day at work. I just think it's a pity that you don't seem to recognise that, whatever bad experiences you've had, not all cops are the same and you can't simply label us as 'the Police' or generalise about our actions in the way you have. Most cops I know are more open-minded than that.

05 February, 2010 15:38

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous 14:56 and Anonymous 14:50
leave Mark's spelling alone and stick with the issues he's raised.
[ get an education ?]. You get some manners.

05 February, 2010 15:42

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

Mark you don't like me because of what I do for a living - before the Police I was a teacher-does that make a difference?

You won't ever be my mate? Funny, but I would die to protect you and your family.

You put your chip up there- and are maintaining it well. I have worked in areas of the country that are VERY rough.. I have never heard a copper call a black man a nigger. I would not allow anyone around me of ANY RANK to do so. I have been called a far amount though- a black bloke once said to me 'you ate only arresting me because I am black' I replied 'you are only saying that because I am white'

Endex ... He went on to try to change it by saying 'err I meant you pair are English' me- 'well he (partner) is Czech I am half American and have Polish ancestors'

I think what bothers me about your point of view is that it is driven by the very prejudice you level at the Police you obviously hate.

05 February, 2010 18:40

Anonymous mark said...

Dear Anon 1450-56,,im upset now i do try so hard with my spelling.
most burglars work during the day.
Thank you so much for your time.LOL,LOL,LOL.

05 February, 2010 19:14

Anonymous mark said...

notts sarge, a very intresting reply,,,
But im sorry i dont think you would find it funny if you were S+S most nights it just does not work like that, The same cops 2-3 times a week {not always the same}
having your bag and contents tipped all over the floor are we still laughing??? or has the smile slipped.
I would say most of my stops would be stop and search, i cant say iv heard much stop and explain.
You stopped many times?? once or twice sorry thats not many times and the first thing you would reach for is your warrent card and i think you know that.
so stop-search figures will be proportionately higher in those areas?????
Yes thats right so what are you saying?? them dam niggers up to no good on nights??
White areas,they must be going to work so a lower S+S??
Yes as i keep trying to tell you the police did play a large part in the 80s riots not just in London but Birmingham as well.
Complex your right about that more complex that my spelling will support.
What happend to PC Blakelock was not sad it was terrible hacked to death by a mob.
What happend to Winston Silcott was terrible as well fitted up by the pols {and 2 others i think} were the pols ever charged?? NO.

05 February, 2010 20:01

Anonymous mark said...

Anon 15:42, Thank you,

05 February, 2010 20:03

Anonymous mark said...

Copperbottom, Let me make this very clear i dont hate you, i dont hate the police, i dont hate anyone.
I dont like the pols but hate no,,no way.
but I would die to protect you and your family??
Just like what your mates did for Steven Lawence??
Yes Copperbottom your right i dont like you or that uniform you were.
When you was a teacher we would have got on fine {helped me with my spelling} but once that uniform went on,,so yes a BIG difference.

05 February, 2010 20:22

Anonymous Pete said...

Mark, the Coppers' Bottom guy is a wanker.

He is desperately trying to justify a position and stance which is utterly indefensible.

Like most of his Woodentop mates, he is ignorant and stupid and not worth one damn bit of f*cking good.

These people, these "officers" are parasites upon the public purse.. with a chip on their own shoulder the size of Manhatten. Dummies who were bullied at school and struggled all their lives to reach the dizzying heights of intellectual mediocrity. ... Tesco security guards one and all. Eh, NottsSarge?

05 February, 2010 22:12

Anonymous copperbottom said...

Mark- I dont know why- but I see what you mean- if you weren't so aggressive about what you post I may agree...

I have come across rude Police- winced at what some have said to people too... but I have also - dealt with rude Post office workers and nurses...

I dont dislike them all because of those bad experiences...

Pete-you dont bother me mate- I deal with people like you all the time.

I dont have to justify myself to you. Why would I? I really would and have put myself in serious danger to help people that turned out to have the same pernicious hatred of the Police- like you do...

Why? because I want to prove something ? not really. I do it because 99% of the public are normal hardworking types that have respect for the Police- it doesnt take much working out that you are not in that 99%... you are in the 1%... that 1% that no matter what is done for you - find something to have a go...

I wonder why you even go on a Police run blog in the fist place? to debate? you dont seem to put forward any views- only hate-filled diatribe.

Perhaps you might be better starting your own- 'I hate the Police blog'...

You say we are all thick and live a parasitic life? What do you do for a living? Do you even work?

I think its quite amusing that you accuse me of having a chip on my shoulder! when you come out with -

'he is ignorant and stupid and not worth one damn bit of f*cking good.These people, these "officers" are parasites upon the public purse.. with a chip on their own shoulder the size of Manhatten. Dummies who were bullied at school and struggled all their lives to reach the dizzying heights of intellectual mediocrity. ... Tesco security guards one and all...'

Well I wasnt bullied at school... lol... I was considered bright enough to get a degree in IT...

So- for me that just dont work...

AS to Stephen Lawrence... no sane person in or out of uniform would be happy with that outcome- but wasnt it 1993-17 years ago?

I had nothing to do with the case- I was 100+ miles away... do you do the same with your doctor? do you still go after harold shipman? beverly allett?

I suppose no matter what I say- you will still blindly go about your hate filled lives... However, one thing that I have found over the years- no matter how much people hate us- talk us down- compare us with morons etc... it never stops them ringing us...

oh btw...
blaming an entire cross section of society for the actions of a few is prejudice- no different from the type of prejudice that breeds racism.

lol the troll is back... what a numpty..

05 February, 2010 23:21

Anonymous mark said...

Pete please dont address any more
posts to me, thank you mark.

06 February, 2010 01:41

Anonymous mark said...

copperbottom, postmen,nurses dont have the power over us like the pols do, to use them as a example is unfair, did you report the cops who were rude to the mops?? {no}
if the mops put a complaint in about the cops would you have told the PSD the truth {no}.
Im not blaming you for not telling the truth about your mates i WOULD do the same,, but rember every time you lie you make more people like me,, sorry but thats the way it is.
I dont mean to sound aggressive or rude but look at the topic of this post illegal searches by the 1,000s can you explain that to me?? i would like answers.
If the pols can behave like that to 1,000s what chance do i have??
Moving on, only 1% of people hate the pols?? were did you get that from, way off the mark.
No Harold Shipman and Beverly allett were both sent to prison.
How many cops were sent to prison over SL?? none,, As you know I dont like you or your kind,,,I WOULD NEVER NEVER just stand their and do fuck all if I saw you had been stabbed, but im part of the human race, in your eyes SL was just nigger.
No No No copperbottom i may have to help pay your wages but I will never ask for your help.

06 February, 2010 02:59

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

Pete - 4gl languages like dataease and job control languages for main frames (hp3000 and IBM 3090) were my thing. My degree (like most in those days) was general, it was still a fledgling industry remember. However, I guess if I had to name a specialty it would be database design. My real love was a brilliant new operating system called unix - still use it ... Using Linux and opera now to write this.

Also, systems analysis was a bit part of my studies. Big field computing - you would know that being an expert ?

Why such hate towards me? I mean why attack my education? Odd...

Mark- like it or not stop and search is a vital tool in dealing with gun crime, drugs etc did you notice that when we stopped searching black youths (and White) what the reaction was from the black community? They were upset
because the amount of shootings went up.

The fact is there is a lot more transparency in anything we do here than in any other country in the world.

If you don't believe me feel free to go to ... Say Poland... If someone gives a description of an offender and you match it - word of advise- when a Polish police officer comes up to you- do exactly what he says or you will be looking down the barrell of an AK47... I have a mate in the Polish police he stares at me with horror at the way some people react when you ask them to submit to a search. I asked him what he did, Pavel replied, "I don't ask. I say 'papers!' then I say empty your pockets - if they don't I draw baton or my pistol ... Etc ...

What do you think Police are for? Really ? What should they do ? Serious question because Pete rude and purile but he hit on someting interesting -he suggests that I had no idea about computing because I couldn't program (he was wrong of course)... My thoughts are how can he know how to do my job without any knowledge of that job- what makes him an expert?

We ate like that in this countr. Eh ? We are all experts in everything- medical matters, education and policing.

What do you think?

Btw bender is a troll...

06 February, 2010 09:50

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

Nurses have more power over if you live and die than we do...

06 February, 2010 09:53

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

Oh pete- we didn't have 'cut and paste' in my day. The only systems I worked on then were text based. I did see an Apple Mac in 1988. However in those days they weren't networked.

06 February, 2010 09:56

Anonymous Steve D. said...

When I was in uniform, I was stopped by a black man asking directions. As I was telling him the way, a car stopped beside us and two guys in scruffy clothing shouted out me to stop harassing the man "just because he's black". I was also called a few other choice names before the car sped off.

That wasn't you was it Mark?!?!?

06 February, 2010 11:18

Anonymous mark said...

Steve D, thats probly not true but it did make me lol and lol, no not me im still lol.

06 February, 2010 13:06

Anonymous mark said...

Copperbottom, I dont live in Poland
Poland is not the topic here.
Why will you not answer my question??.
Iv never said S+S should be scraped.
But may i point out AGAIN your own bosses say its a waist of time.
S+S played no part in the rise of shootings in B-ham that was all out war between two gangs, i know I live in Brum.
When the gangs stopped fighting shootings went down.
But if the pols keep making illegal searchs how long will it be before the courts stop it???
How long before we have riots again?

06 February, 2010 13:22

Anonymous Steve D. said...

Mark – LMAO - It is true, and I've many more examples. Once I was similarly abused whilst briefing a black CID officer at a scene!

I'll admit it's hard to ask you to believe me because it was a decade ago and nothing was recorded. In today's climate one has to complete a 'stop form' just for speaking to someone on the street, even without a search!!!

In saying that, there were also a lot of occasions when I was actually stopping and searching people and got abused, but invariably the people abusing had no idea what had happened beforehand or what information I had that led to the stop. I guess working in the Brixton area of South London didn’t help.

06 February, 2010 15:21

Anonymous mark said...

steve D. Brixton very nice, you are lucky not to have got stabbed in a place like that,,i can see it all now white cop,,S+S black guy in Brixton,,,,
Iv never had a stop form just for a cop {trying} to talk to me, bit odd that you shure about the forms.

06 February, 2010 15:38

Anonymous copperbottom said...

lol- Poland was just an example... of the other side of Policing - the not so cosy way that everyone else in the world outside of the glass bottle of the UK has to live with.

99% of searches ARE legal... we wouldn't have any money left if they weren't...

most searches are not conducted under SEC 1 of Pace anyway...

They are under the misuse of drugs act and various other PACE sections - sec 18 and 32...(following arrest)...

Remember, when we arrested that MP? then searched his offices? without a warrant!!!!??? lol I smiled to note- senior judges and MPs with legal training did not seem to know we DONT NEED A WARRANT to search following arrest... Sec 18/32 PACE cover that one...

Section one- search without arrest... needs reasonable suspicion that the person: needs searching in the first place (if your desc of offender is a 6ft2 white transvestite -you dont search a 4-6ins bloke in a suit)... that you confine your search to outer garments- and that you confine your search to what you initially were looking for- in a nutshell- some officers have misused search powers- sure- but that dont really give people the right to riot, kill Police officers and destroy 000000s worth of property eh?

There are some 'street searches' I have thought Draconian- the anti-terror searches are by and large silly.

Its about using common sense- I agree some people dont have a lot... I dont see the point of searching old people for weapons and drugs en-route to a football match... for ex...

Section one searches are tightly controlled- its just not a good idea to abuse these powers- you will end up being suspended real quick if you do.

Bosses saying they dont work ? lol... they run away from things they think may go Pete Tong faster than Carl Lewis...

Section one powers do work well. Its degrading? yes, I agree... how many times have you been searched for weapons going into a club? did it stop you going in? not that bad then...

If you have a bee in your bonnet about legislation- I can point you in the direction of some other good stuff...

if you like...

In the PACE codes of practice there is a table that shows where/what may be searched/ what may be seized/ who may be detained for all crown agents...

you may be interested to note that HM Customs (a Police force employed by the state with its own firearms and cid that ONLY do the Exchequers bidding) have the words /anywhere/anything/anything/anything/anyone in their boxes...

just one example- I have loads....

06 February, 2010 15:50

Blogger PC Bloggs said...

Mark, I delete comments by trolls, it may be I deleted one of yours too. If so, apologies.

To respond to two of your points however:
"most burglars work during the day" - er, no, they don't. Being a burglar is kind of their job.

"pete please don't address any more posts to me" - that made me laugh. Pete obviously latched onto you as a fellow troll, and is unable to tell the difference between someone who is hostile towards the police with reasoned arguments, and his own pointless and abusive diatribes. So thanks for putting him in his place.

06 February, 2010 16:33

Anonymous mark said...

Copperbottom, the club bit not fair i CHOOSE to go in, i dont choose S+S,
most S+S dont lead to arrest not sure if im reading that right.
Very little gives people the right to riot or kill, but without the rioting our policing would never have changed no act of PACE or would you like to get rid of PACE??
Birmingham 6, Guilford 4 o yes the good old days???
If section 1 works so well why do so many searches lead to so few arrests and so many complaints and unrest????????.
Poland i realy dont know, France had 3 nights of rioting just before Xmas, Germany the Mayor of one city had to call in troops after the cops lost controll...

06 February, 2010 16:42

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

Too right bloggsy ... For all his obvious issue with the cops - I wouldn't mind buying him a beer. Could never see that happening with Pete...

Mark you may not beleive it but I have lots of mates that are not Police officers. Some hate the Police - one is a biker that has been on the wrong side of the law... He has big issues with the locals... Thing is - so do I ... I reckon my experiences of the police are running at about 50-50 at the moment...

But - he like me- have learned to look past the uniform at the person. It's the only way.

I hope you can do the same...

06 February, 2010 16:45

Anonymous R/T said...

mark @ 1642 - Birmingham 6 Guildford 4. Sounds like a cracker! Was that after extra time?

06 February, 2010 17:38

Anonymous mark said...

Madam BLOGGS, apologies excepted,
crime figs state more houses are ripped off during the day than night.

06 February, 2010 19:17

Anonymous mark said...

R/T no it was not a game 10 men and women were fitted up by the cops and sent to prison for many years {1 died in prison} they had there lives destroyed for nothing.

06 February, 2010 19:34

Anonymous mark said...

coppers bottom,, i will only ever see the uniform nothing more,
thank you for the beer but no way.
stay safe, Mark.

06 February, 2010 19:40

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

I prefer to say on hold... As I refuse to give up on anyone so obviously clever ... Just don't give up yourself.

Also the court didn't find the Birmingham pub bombers not guity - it found the conviction was unsafe... They did it alright.

06 February, 2010 20:40

Anonymous mark said...

copperbottom,, unsafe of course it was unsafe the pols tourcherd them,
their was no other evidence against them...
O yes the playing card bit....

06 February, 2010 21:43

Anonymous NottsSarge said...

Hooray! Mark is human! Believe it or not, there would be a pint waiting for you somewhere near the other end of the M42...

I realised when I posted my last that it read wrong re S&S of minorities. I meant that the ethnic mix will reflect the area - so Brum, Nottm and various similar places will have skewed figures where there are significant minority groups living in a paricular area - as would Southwark or Brixton compared with, say, Henley.

Mark - my current work has a lot to do with a specific estate. Because of this, I meet the same people again and again, be they our target nominals, repeat victims of crime, Council operatives etc. That's a luxury that a lot of Response cops don't have. If I kept bumping into you at 2am, you might get stopped and/or searched the first couple of times if the circs required it, but I think the penny would drop pretty quick - That's just Mark on his way home from spelling classes, he's not out burgling...
A lot of that boils down to local knowledge, the ability to engage with people and seeing beyond a tick in the box for a stop-search because of pressure from above to hit targets. Far too many cops know nothing else because that is the environment created by performance-led Policing. I think we'd both agree that's lamentable. That's what Bloggsy was getting at to begin with.

Bloggsy - apologies, I went a bit Alan Partridge before. The time is five to midnight - oh, sorry, not my show.
Your blog, you decide who posts. For what it's worth I'd keep Mark in but get rid of Pete.
And aren't you T/PS Bloggs by now? It's all pensionable...

07 February, 2010 01:39

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Who is to say who anyone is on the interwebby? Mark could be a clever PSD who is pretending to be an "ethnic minority, low educational achiever", who has issues with the police. Or he could be a genuine dyslexic, clever but with a poor memory for spelling.

But either way, too right Bloggsy, for you putting one abusive contributor in his place. There was no need for him to call Mark a "f***wit" because of his spelling mistakes.

And is Copperbottom the REAL PCDC-Copperbottom?.... who, when he first posted on this blog, had a blue name link to his own [neglected] blog......

And as for "Pete"....he's just nasty. No need for that at all.

NottsSarg - way back on the 5th Feb back up there on the comments, you said, "Think you're right etc...and that if it was my house that had been burgled, you would want me checking people out". YES, of course I would.

And, if I had been seriously abused as a child AND as an adult, female police officer, and also the victim of serious FRAUD, I would expect support from fellow officers, and for justice being seen to be per Home Office spin. It aint happened, so far, as the "powers that be" have DISCRIMINATED against me, and swept it under the rug, rather than pay up £££££££!!!!! Equality?

Having read Allcoppedout's blog, it makes me wonder what the hell is going on in this country......

07 February, 2010 03:16

Anonymous mark said...

Anon, Who the hell said i was from a ethnic minority?? O i got it now,,work with blacks get S+S EG hes BLACK no im a white,,,i gather you dont know what a dysexic is??
I do like the cleaver but with poor memory for spelling,,yep thats me.
You do have a point about copperbottom is he a cop or not??
fuckwit lol, how many fuck ups have the cops made over the years.

07 February, 2010 13:36

Anonymous mark said...

Notts sarge, thanks for the beer but i dont drink with your kind,thank you all the same.
At last a cop that gets it 1-2 S+S yes {you stil get complaints} but to happen week after week thats what im getting at.
Yes keep mark, not bothered one way or the other about Pete,
but please do you have to keep Anon???
PS/ spelling classes? lol very good...

07 February, 2010 13:48

Anonymous copperbottom said...

yes Mark, I am a Police Officer of 20-years service, mostly in CID and PPU (investigating Child Sex Offenders)...

I dont know why you would continue to insult me -when I have only tried to engage with you in a friendly way?

I think you are just prejudice, plain and simple.

You may have noted I don't take the piss out of your spelling?

Can I ask why you come on this blog when you 'don't like us sorts'?

There must be a place where you can go to vent your hate( opps) dislike of our sort?

On a lighter note, I think, Mark, you are missing the point about stop and search, it is an investigative tool - not a court.

Like an interview is - you dont have to speak in an interview- anymore than you need to speak to a Police officer- unless you are driving. Then you are required to provide certain information name address etc...- nothing more.

Stop and search (sec 1 PACE) isn't there to harass people- no matter how much you protest it is- it is there so that officers can stop and search people that MAY have committed offenses.

If you have 'friends' that are stopped at odd hours- I really dont believe that they are searched for NO REASON... simply being in a road walking along is not reason to stop and SEARCH- for what?

Dont confuse stop and search with a simple encounter that is recorded and logged.

07 February, 2010 20:01

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

One question you have avoided Marky Mark- what do you do for a living? I am curious to know why you might be scared of saying?

07 February, 2010 23:38

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes Mark, I do know what dyslexia is. Why take a pop at me, having sort of stuck up for you? Bizarre!

08 February, 2010 00:35

Blogger Joker said...

Reading this thread, I almost think, wouldn't it be great if someone in the Gloucestershire Constabulary would restore my faith in the police, and call the individuals who routinely lie to cover up for themselves and others, to account?

And PC Bloggs, should that be 'Bouchergate', or has something else happened..?

08 February, 2010 10:24

Anonymous mark said...

Anon 00:35, you seem to think im black, im not. i replyed to your post thats all.
Im sorry if you think im taking a pop at you im not..{sorry}
please dont stick up for me i dont want your help or support.

08 February, 2010 21:59

Anonymous copperbottom said...

still waiting...

08 February, 2010 22:02

Anonymous mark said...

Copperbottom its Mark just Mark thank you, Iv not avoided anything
iv not been asked,

08 February, 2010 22:06

Anonymous mark said...

give me chance iv just got in, be with you in a mo.

08 February, 2010 22:07

Anonymous mark said...

copperbottom,,i will reply to your post tuesday night.
iv got workkkkkkkkkk..

08 February, 2010 22:22

Anonymous mark said...

copperbottom, iv not insulted you, i almost hurt by that reply, i asked if you were a cop thats all.
How many times do i have to say this I DONT HATE COPS!!!! i wish no one harm or bad health have we got that now?
Just becouse i dont like you or want to drink with you it does not mean i want you dead or see you hurt..
If you have 'friends' that are stopped at odd hours- I really dont believe that they are searched for NO REASON... simply being in a road walking along is not reason to stop and SEARCH- for what?
This is what i keep trying to tell you YES YES for no reason YES always a search for no reason how many times do i have to tell you this, It was only after we ALL started to make complaints that it stopped, as iv told you we got our union involved {IPCC told me to do that} In the end a cop inspector came to talk to us and tryed saying the same as you, so the complaints started again.
As iv said i was S+S 2-3 times in the same week same cops on the 4th S+S was when i was arrested.
The same goes for a lot of my mates same thing happend bar the arrest.
I know what PACE says about S+S, anti terror laws- sec 44 {unlawful or its is now}, drug or knife searches,
What iv told you is the truth why would i lie?
You dont seem to have the first clue how the pols treat people in dark back streets...
My old superviser was slapped across the face by a young cop girl
when he told her he was going to make a complaint about her {2-3 cops just him},
I did not see it, but i saw him when he came in to work he was in tears very upset... What you think he just made it all up??
No sec 1 of PACE is not their to harass its the pols that harass,, are we getting it now??
Yes you may ask me why i come on this blogg,,,The reason is to learn
watch read and learn,,How do you think i found out about PACE? the rules of S+S,, I will call the PSD your mates but i know they are NOT,
The PSD seem to hate you more than Pete,, Iv had a few come to my home.
I had a long chat with Olivers Army i think he/she called themself
and many others that includes you.
The IPCC more of your mates?? they want to fuck u and the PSD sideways.
The complaints system is getting stronger and you and your job are on the end of it or even prison the PSD or IPCC would shaft you over the word of a lying smack head
and dont think your gaffers will help you THEY WONT.
You think its hard being a cop now wait untill the IPCC are discredited then dispanded, id give them 3-5 more years.
Then the nazi PSD IPCC SS will take over the complaints system.
Is it IG who says watch what you wish for???.
How do i know all this??? from watching you and your kind...
thanx for your help.

09 February, 2010 16:22

Anonymous Copperbottom said...

You still haven't said what you do for a living ...

10 February, 2010 16:24

Anonymous mark said...

CB, Id rather not if you dont mind its nothing fancy, a bit dull to be fair but i like it, I have a bit to do with the unions,
And do a bit with outreach at weekends,, well the missis works for them i just go with her and help,,
Why are you so intrested?
You no we talked about the 80s riots i gather your lot arrested a guy, why was he held so long?

10 February, 2010 17:09


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