All power to PCSOs
I had written a superbly amusing post about the PCSOs who watched a boy drown while a "real" police officer and some fishermen jumped in to try and save him. Then I read this defence of them. I still think someone else might have dived in anyway, but have decided not to post my original attack as I wasn't there and don't know.However it did get me thinking (now there's a surprise). We have a bit of an ongoing problem in Blandmore with PCSOs "interpreting" their job role differently to their police colleagues.
The role of the PCSO is best described by stating what they DON'T do, ie:
- Confrontation.
- Investigation of crime.
- First Aid.
- Capture of criminals.
- Assistance of police officers in trouble.
- Transport of prisoners.
- Checking out suspicious incidents.
- Dealing with "major incidents" (definition of which seems to have been redefined by Det Ch Insp Phil Owen of Wigan Police).
The problem with poor Jordon (above, drowned), seems to be that his parents think because PCSOs look and sound and cycle in the manner of police officers, that they possess the same powers and training AS police officers.
It never ceases to amaze me how naive Mops (Members of Public) can be. They need to understand that when you undergo the PCSO training, you not only learn exhaustively about waving your arms at cars, putting leaflets through doors and the fine art of Risk Assessment, but this information actually REPLACES basic human knowledge that you may have possessed before. Such as the instinct to jump into a pond to save a child.
In any event, half the time the problem with Blandshire's PCSOs is that they desperately WANT to be real police officers and get themselves in all kinds of sticky situations. Why on earth they don't just put in their applications I have no idea.
It might be something to do with real police having to have reached puberty.
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Copyright of PC Bloggs.
It never ceases to amaze me how naive Mops (Members of Public) can be. They need to understand that when you undergo the PCSO training, you not only learn exhaustively about waving your arms at cars, putting leaflets through doors and the fine art of Risk Assessment, but this information actually REPLACES basic human knowledge that you may have possessed before. Such as the instinct to jump into a pond to save a child.
In any event, half the time the problem with Blandshire's PCSOs is that they desperately WANT to be real police officers and get themselves in all kinds of sticky situations. Why on earth they don't just put in their applications I have no idea.
It might be something to do with real police having to have reached puberty.
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Copyright of PC Bloggs.
posted by PC Bloggs at 05:20
48 Comments:
After reading what the PCSO's are not trained to do and/or not expected to do and/or not fit to do; it appears they are not, in the case of a drowning child, expected to have the basic of all human instincts: the preservation of life itself.
Any average citizen, without the uniform and the helmet/cap and the yellow vis jacket would have done more. Perhaps the vis jacket, in this case, has a double meaning.
22 September, 2007 05:09
This is a difficult one to call without knowing all the facts.
If the PCSOs could not see the person in the water and didn't know where he was then fair enogh.
If they knew he had last been seen at a particular point and decided it was too dangerous for them to enter well that's on their conscience. A still water lake I would go in if I could see the person.
The sea or a fast flowing river in spate? It depends. I've watched someone drown in a river in spate. Not easy to do but there was no way I would have got to him. The only reason he wasn't being washed very fast downstream was that he had tied a very heavy object to his feet before jumping in from a bridge. He was nowhere near the bank.
In 1983 three police officers drowned at Blackpool trying to save a holidaymaker in the sea.
In this recent case it's not that clear cut, being still water, but Im still reluctant to criticise someone when I wasn't there.
22 September, 2007 10:32
If it quacks, and looks like a duck, it is a duck.
The whole CSO experiment has not worked.
22 September, 2007 10:51
PCSOs of 17 and below (if there are any) are treated as children and so can have witness support in court.
So if giving evidence against a lifelong hardened criminal, they can have mummy and social workers present to hold their hand.
Ahhh. Ain't it sweet.
22 September, 2007 12:35
It is probably easier to define the role of PCSO's by defining what they DO....
1. Look like real police
2. Errr
3. Errr
4. That's about it, really.
22 September, 2007 13:10
I'am a PCSO (I'm 28 before you ask and my police application form is in..)
Don't worry I'm not about to start defending the role or anything - I totally agree with everything written above (especially the bit about teenage PCSO's - what happened to getting some life expeince first??)
I'm not going to comment on whether those 2 PCSO's did the right thing or not as I wasn't there but to say they didn't jump in because they weren't trained to is nonesense. Surely instinct kicks in when dealing with a situation like that?
I don't totally hate my job, i do think that i do some good, the problem is all the people i speak to say that while they appreciate me being out on the streets, they'd rather see a fully trained PC out and about. That's never going to change whatever new ideas the government come up with.
22 September, 2007 13:13
I have every sympathy with the family and their loss but for once I would like the right person to take responsibility and say 'my child died because I allowed them to play unsupervised on the banks of a deep and clearly dangerous pond.' It is clearly much easier to blame someone else for their failings as a parent.
22 September, 2007 13:40
Ted said:
In 1983 three police officers drowned at Blackpool trying to save a holidaymaker in the sea.
I remember this incident. One of the officers was WPC Angela Bradbury, aged 23.
See http:/
/www.policememorial.org.uk
/Special_Rolls/Women_Police
/Women_Police_Roll.htm
The others were PCs Gordon Connolly and Colin Morrison, aged 24 and 38 respectively.
See http:/
/www.policememorial.org.uk
/Forces/Lancashire
/Lancashire_Roll_of_Honour.htm
The man they tried to rescue also drowned.
The attitude of the time seems to have been that if somebody else's life was in danger, that mattered more than your own. This perception may have taken precedence over the matter of appropriate training, or lack of.
You could of course argue that such an attitude in 1983 resulted in 4 deaths rather than one (plus that of the victim's dog that he was trying to rescue).
But I don't think that's all there is to it.
However, I leave it to the professionals to comment further on that aspect.
Except that, while I hold no brief for David Blunkett, on the basis of a stopped clock being right twice a day, his comments merit some consideration, I suggest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi
/england/manchester
/7008077.stm
22 September, 2007 15:38
"if it quacks and it looks like a duck, then it is a duck".....i have just recovered from rolling around on the floor! That's a cracker!
Anyway, PCSO's, i've done a few posts on my blogg about them. They really are a grey area.
Whilst on the whole young PCSO thing. I was speaking to a colleague at work last week about this.
What if a 16 year old PCSO (i dont think there is one yet but Thames Valley welcome them) had to submit a statement of evidence for something they witnessed? Would their mum come down the nick and be appropriate adult for them?
Ahh, thats got you thinking! I really do think we have a stand up comedian in government somewhere!
22 September, 2007 15:40
This spot has more details about the PCSOs actions.
http:/
/norfolkblogger.blogspot.com
/2007/09/making-story-fit-headline.html
If these details are correct, they should of course also be taken into consideration.
22 September, 2007 15:54
In the meantime, in the wider context, the policeman's lot remains a less than happy one:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk
/pages/live/articles/news
/news.html?in_article_id=482928&in_
page_id=1766&ito=1490
22 September, 2007 16:04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7008077.stm
He's got a cheek. They're his bloody 'invention' in the first place.
22 September, 2007 16:16
Surely the bottom line is that they should have waded in and tried? I can't understand why GMP defended them to the extent that they did. Oh well, as loads of us have said - we weren't there.
P.S. Ellie - did you post from work on Nights or at home before Earlies? If at work - be careful. They can get all sorts of stuff out you know?
22 September, 2007 16:25
Anon said, re Blunkett:
He's got a cheek. They're his bloody 'invention' in the first place.
More comments on 'Blunkett's Bobbies' can be found here.
http:/
/nationalistblog.blogspot.com/
The key statement is that which was heard by the inquest.
But according to The Mail the inquest heard that " After seeing the two PCSOs standing at the water's edge, they (Bert Wright, 66, and John Collinson, 63) jumped in, to be joined moments later by Sergeant Lippitt."
If the inquest has been correctly informed, then clearly the PCSO ethos is cause for concern.
22 September, 2007 17:06
My apologies for being a blog-hog but although it is way OT, I thought this should be posted:
Today is Remembrance Day for Mr Harry Patch, of Wells, Somerset, who is aged 109 and is Britain's last surviving WW1 veteran who fought on the Western Front.
He served as a machine gunner with the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry in the Flanders salient between June and September 1917.
On September 22nd, 1917, Harry was wounded by a shell burst on Pilkem Ridge during the battle of Passchendaele and his three mates, all members of his Lewis Gun team, were killed.
Harry spent the rest of the war in hospital and convalescing.
He says therefore that September 22nd is his Reemembrance Day.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi
/england/somerset/6760973.stm
22 September, 2007 17:56
Anonymous 13:40 - thank God! I was wondering whether I was the only one wondering why a 10 year old and an eight year old were allowed to play near a pond unsupervised.
22 September, 2007 18:44
A still water pond...six feet deep. That's what PC Blogg's link to the BBC News says.
These guys wear the same uniform as "real" cops and yet not expected to react as "first responders" should. Just six feet of still water...think about it.
I'm betting the truth be known is that these guys don't know how to swim and most probably afraid of water. If that is true it is a basic failing in the PCSO selection process especially if their patrol area includes water hazzards.
What would they do if they saw a ten year old hanging out of a second story window of a house on fire? Wait for the bucket brigade? And of course make sure that one is standing by the water hydrant so as to point it out to the fire fighters.?
22 September, 2007 19:24
Hello, this is my first and hopefully only post to perhaps put matters at rest. My name is Craig Lippitt, the Sergeant who was the first officer at scene.
Firstly, I'm not going to go into the politics of the positives and negatives of PCSO's.
There has been a massive furore over this. I'm a bit surprised as the inquest was last Friday.
Some of the media stories circulating about this incident are quite wide of the mark. As I was the first at scene, let me straighten out a few facts;
We did not receive the correct location, so were delayed a couple of minutes until we arrived. We were assisted by the PCSO's who had found the correct pond and mentioned it over the radio, The bobby I was with, knew the location and we made our way.
One of the PCSO's waited at the road to direct us in. There was a gate by the road which was locked, so we couldn't drive up. We got out and ran a 100 yds to the pond (which is 2 disused mine shafts, capped and filled with water).
I saw the second PCSO standing near the ponds' edge. I spoke to one of the fishermen who was nearby to clarify if there really was a boy in the water, as I have been to hoaxes before.
I saw 2 men in the water - and made a judgement call. My judgement was to go in. It was a personal decision to do so. I am fit, a decent swimmer and I also knew that there was a boy in the water that I might help to bring out alive.
I want to make it clear that the boy was not visible in the water and there was no indication where he was.
I took off my body armour and utility belt and got in to assist the search. As the pond used to be a disused mineshaft, it became deep very quickly - I couldn't stand up. It was found to be 2.1m deep.
We located the boy very quickly and we brought him out. Myself and another officer commenced CPR for about 10 mins until the air ambulance arrived.
The thing is - it's a personal decision. I made that decision, others made theirs. No criticism can be fairly levelled at anyone.
22 September, 2007 19:38
Well done Craig, best and most objective answer to the mass media hype seen so far.
Great job done by yourself and your team, and it seems, by the PCSOs.
Tragedy for the life lost, but it just gets worse in a way - disused mine shafts and kids allowed to play near them......wonders will never cease.
22 September, 2007 19:49
Anon,
Are you really Craig Lippett? Internet has it's wannabe's!
I could've been present at the scene if you hadn't have got there first (get my drift?)!
Were you present at the inquest? If not, why not?
Why were these two PCSOs NOT present at the inquest? If I was in their position I would 'INSIST AT BEING PRESENT' if only to clear my name.
Are you advocating 'cheap police' at the expense of a 10-year-old child?
22 September, 2007 20:18
As I mentioned, I'm not going to get into the politics of the role of PCSO's.
As for the inquest, that is decided by the Coroner and possibly the Coroners officer who works alongside the Police. As it was a critical incident, an SIO was appointed and I took no further part apart from providing my MG11.
Yes I am the real one although I do understand your caution.
22 September, 2007 20:54
Sgt - Excellent post - it must have been horrendous and I commend you on your actions and on the balanced way you have described the incident.
bfb - as if a PCSO could insist on anything to a Coroner? I feel incredibly sorry for these two, and ill-informed comments like that only serve to make a difficult situation, worse.
It is vital that people remember that it is incredibly easy to second-guess from the safety of a warm room, but things always look different from the front-line and I don't see how anyone can criticise the PCSOs unless they were at the scene.
22 September, 2007 21:11
I wouldn't trust some Seventeen year olds with a potato gun, but then again, I wouldn't trust some thirty year olds with one either.
I'm sure you get the point.
22 September, 2007 22:26
Well done Craig. I have no doubt you made th right choice.I have dived into murky waters I knew would require a stomach pump afterwards after an attempted suicide but the duty to TRY and save life for me is absolute.
23 September, 2007 02:11
Craig, thanks for stopping by. I think the real angst here is because everyone feels something like this has been waiting to happen. There's been a bit of relish in the "told you so" articles in newspapers. Time for a new post, I think...
23 September, 2007 03:34
A 10-year-old child died as a result of Neo-Lab's cheap police policy, spare me the 'great post' bollocks.
Anon, were you present at the inquest?
23 September, 2007 06:54
PC Bloggs, to post this topic on your blog in order to make a few cheap points against PCSOs is contemptible.
It is totally self-serving. You have no honour, you have no soul.
You only want to use the excuse of a poor child's death in an internecine squabble to stick the knife into a section of the constabulary that most of the PCs see as a threat to their pensions.
You're a disgrace.
23 September, 2007 10:35
PC Bloggs. Would you like chapter and verse about the times I've come across PCs who have just stood around with their fingers up their a**e?
Not life or death situations but ones where the application of a little intelligence would have made all the difference.
23 September, 2007 12:51
bfb you appear to be a police hating nazi. Post your own tripe on your blog, where other idiots can see your stupidity.
23 September, 2007 12:54
Deepest sympathy to the family.
However I did spot one little innaccuracy in the original post about PCSO's being trained in posting things through doors:
I'd like to thank Canning Town PCSO's for leaving loads of "Burglary safety" type leaflets hanging out of all the letterboxes on my and surrounding streets. Just to let Billy Burgler know who was in and which houses were deserted. Thank you!!
Can't even get that right
23 September, 2007 15:09
If the Government wants to increase the uniformed presence on the street then why don't they simply create a full-time Police Reserve similar to the PSNI. They could be deployed in the same way as PCSOs are now but with the training and powers needed to deal with situations they encounter.
23 September, 2007 17:26
Having read Mr Lippit's explanation of the events of this tragic incident It reinforces my view that the journalists have followed the first rule - never let the truth get in the way of a good story.
I can only hope the inquest revealed (a) why the children were apparently left alone in such a dangerous place, (b) where wer ethe parents of the children at the time of the incident, (c) what were they doing at the time (d) why do they feel it necessary to blame others for their own apparent shortcomings, or am I just being pedantic?
By the way, looked at the powers of PCSOs and understand they have the power of detention but not arrest. Can anyone explain the difference? Surely if you are being detained, i.e. prevented from going about your lawful business, you are, in fact, being arrested.
Mop
23 September, 2007 21:06
From across the pond it looks like PCSO's want to 1) Look like a duck; 2) Be respected as a duck; 3)Have the authority of a duck; 4) Be paid as much as a duck; BUT do not want to be held accountable as a duck.
Even the Sergeant's own accounting places the depth of the water at 6 feet-eight inches and in his words "found the boy immediately".
Wonder what had happened if the PCSO's had jumped in and found the boy SOONER?
23 September, 2007 21:43
Liking your work US DS
23 September, 2007 23:35
I think you've hit the nail on the head here bloggsy..... its the lack of accountability that PCSO's rely on. If they weren't i that uniform, you can bet the CC would have called them cowards.
I'd like to think that anyone I know who wears the cloth, on or off duty would have risked their safety for a 10 year old boy, and its to the eternal shame of all of the echelon and government that the boy died. Malfeasance/misfeasance/neglect call it what you want. The PCSO's involved should be vilified, as too should their bosses for the vicarious loss of life.
Incidentally, just reading your book... got to the bit where you 've split from your boyfriend.... so, ... fancy a drink? 8pm? Blandshire Arms?
24 September, 2007 09:37
I've posted on this subject myself, personaly I feeel the parents are more to blame for letting the children play near a lake unsupervised.
Ref the PCSO's and thier applications for the job (as PC's) most of the PCSO's in my nick have failed several times to pass the selection process for proper PC's, yet have been allowed to join as PCSO's!! Thanks alot!!
24 September, 2007 11:45
Can anybody fail the test to become a woodentop?
Sounds slightly incredible :)
24 September, 2007 19:59
Can I please be the first to say, this is neither the time, nor the place anon 20.21, and appeal to Bloggsy to remove the comment to save wear and tear on any more PCs' PCs (see what I did there?).
Oh, it was incredibly boring as well.
24 September, 2007 21:22
A former PC who couldn't hack it methinks and one who is now blaming the system for their own shortcomings. Nobody thinks things are perfect or blogs such as this wouldn't exist but pop another prozac and cuddle your fluffy bunny. You can then dream about your last boyfriend who probably dumped you a year and a half ago for being a bit of a raver. Am I being unkind, you just remind of someone. Bipolar is the modern word for it.
24 September, 2007 21:25
Anonymous hat gesagt...
"Mr Thompson said they would not encourage any police officer to jump into the water because of the dangers".
I wish I had have known that to tell to Ernie Store (sp?) at Bruche, when I was going through Hell to pass my life saving course.
Bundesmarine Polizei.
25 September, 2007 08:44
1, why has mother let two children aged 8 and 10 play next to open water why were no questions put in her direction?
2, this was a huge lake with no sighting of the young chap for some time, in these circumstances it is not advisable to enter the water for a 'cursory look around' i personally would have awaited other officers to secure the scene and await further assistance from trained search teams.
3, anyone offering negative comments regarding the PCSO's actions, I wish to know were you there?
25 September, 2007 10:20
It's easy to judge, spin theories and state 'If I had been there.....', but you only know how you will react when put in that situation.
People who have been in a situation like that can say how they would react, because they have done so, others should reserve judgement.
25 September, 2007 12:56
I am a team Sgt with supervisory responsibility over four PCSO's and I hear the comments such as "Policing on the cheap" and "wannabe Police officers", I disagree with both comments as my PCSO's are very capable, one is an ex 30 year PC and the others have absolutely no wish to become "real Police officers".
PCSO's are here to stay and in my view are very valuable as they are not tied to the radio, have no workload to deal with and are highly visible with most members of the public being happy to see a presence on the streets as lets be honest we Police officers are too busy doing other things to do foot patrols (as much as we would want to).
I have read the account of the Sgt who attended and as I had guessed the press account differs greatly and I know who I choose to believe, well done Sgt and your team.
To repeat what others have said the decision to enter the water would be on an individual basis and to sit in a nice warm room with lots of time to think/consider what you would do is not the same as having seconds to decide knowing that after the incident whatever you do will be criticised by someone.
It is a sad fact of life that children all over the world die in similar circumstances and it will be virtually impossible to prevent this as there will always be an exception after which the finger of blame comes out usually at the wrong people such as those who tried to save a live as apposed to those who allowed the situation to develop.
25 September, 2007 18:57
The tragedy in a "flash" of six to ten feet deep the size of a football pitch and the rest - formed by flooding some subsided mine workings - was investigated by an inquest.
This accepted that the kid was invisible to the PCSOs and had been underwater for some 20-25 minutes when they arrived and 30 by the time he was pulled out. Dead already.
I might well have gone in myself. I don't really know. But I am a very strong swimmer indeed, have some life saving training, and can be very impetuous indeed. But actually what these PCSOs did seems very reasonable.
Jordan probably died at or around the time when the fishermen lost sight of him as he passed over his step-sister.
His mum and dad were passing off the blame for letting young kids go play in areas with swimming strictly prohibited. The inquest is clear. The Standard and related coverage is appallingly badly constructed with the headlines and captions and other highglighted text serving to change the story from PCSOs arrive 20 minutes after boy drowns to having them standing watching him splashing and drowning.
Why do we have inquests? To inquire! Why do we ignore them? In this case to make cheap and borderline down right nasty points about PCSOs.
I think they are useful. They are not as useful as trained PCs. This is why they get paid half as much and have different duties.
27 September, 2007 15:54
Whatever happened to "reach, throw, wade row"?
I think that PCSOs are a waste of time. If it was my child, and they had done nothing as it appears, I'd want to punch their lights out. Primarily, because they didn't/don't appear to have used even basic common sense. Lack of training isn't an excuse.
What we need is more police on the beat - not PCSOs. If we can afford to send people to die in Afghanistan or to ponse around in Iraq, we can afford to give our own country more police officers. Maybe if we put more into sorting out our own society, we could then think about sorting out someone else's.
Agree wholeheartedly with us detective sargeant!
28 September, 2007 11:51
Rant
The truth is that we cannot afford to send people to Afganistan and I believe using the term "ponse around Iraq" is quite offensive to our service personel, thats the ones who are still alive anyway.
Sgt LIPPITT has already detailed the account as the Sergeant on the scene which is very different from what the press say and lets be honest, the press will sensationalise most things to sell their rubbish.
Have you ever done something in your life which was the right thing to do but were critisized by someone who clearly was not in possession of the real facts and if so how did it make you feel.
Spare a thought for the PCSOs and how they now feel based on a distorted public view/opinion.
28 September, 2007 19:21
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03 April, 2009 20:26
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